Evil

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Evil

Post by Pound Cake on Tue Dec 01, 2015 7:03 pm

First topic message reminder :

Is evil lack of goodness, or does it have an existence of its own?
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Re: Evil

Post by Blitz on Wed Dec 16, 2015 1:41 pm

Try playing God, and you'll see how hard it is. I actually after reading a book on it, created different scenarios all based on human nature and tried to manipulate and created the list of pro's and con's. The con's were always horrible. God moves in his ways which are perfects.
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Re: Evil

Post by Pound Cake on Wed Dec 16, 2015 6:02 pm

That isn't really the question. It's fascinating that you did that and that sounds like an unusual book. Maybe things would be worse if God interfered. Well and good, though sometimes God does interfere (miracles) and that does no harm.

The question though, is how is God adhering to basic decency if He's allowing a person to be murdered? Doesn't that make Him partially responsible for that murder as anyone would be if they did absolutely nothing to try and help?
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Re: Evil

Post by Countess on Wed Dec 16, 2015 6:10 pm

Although don't forget that because of sin, death is something that has to happen sometime to every single human. So are you questioning why God allows death, or just murder?
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Re: Evil

Post by Pound Cake on Thu Dec 17, 2015 8:05 pm

More evil actions in general, the murder is just an example. And not so much why He allows it. Assuming He does, and must, how is He not responsible for evil? How is exempt from basic decency?
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Re: Evil

Post by Blitz on Fri Dec 18, 2015 1:16 pm

So then what decides what murders God prevents and allows? What sins should he stop? How much should he restrict human free will? And he couldn't act out right since he doesn't reveal himself too often visibly.
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Re: Evil

Post by Pound Cake on Fri Dec 18, 2015 6:43 pm

Turn the bullet into a flower? I don't know.

The point is, again, even assuming there is no alternative to evil, even assuming God can't stop it all of the time, isn't He causing evil by allowing it? 

Yes or no?

The question of whether or not He could in practice stop is another discussion.
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Re: Evil

Post by Blitz on Sat Dec 19, 2015 1:22 pm

That would be a constantly miracle and you could easily start killing people with other weapons. 

Would you like to be robot? You can't really love or enjoy happiness until you seen pain. 

Yes or no to what?

Another example, some people would never come to Christ if they hadn't landed in jail. Well a lot of people. Some the greatest outreachers were in jail for despicable crimes. 

And what differs sin in God's eyes? Nothing. Sin is equal in God's eyes. So rightfully we should be crisp after telling a lie if we go by your standards. Even ten lies to equal murder and we would all be struck down.
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Re: Evil

Post by Countess on Sat Dec 19, 2015 2:07 pm

Suppose a murderer was killed in a drunken frenzy in a rough part of town? The murderer was a wicked sinful man who had killed innocent people in his past. Would you still question when God didn't turn that bullet into a flower? @Pound Cake
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Re: Evil

Post by Mr. S on Sun Dec 27, 2015 10:35 pm

I would have to say that evil in the metaphysical sense is the corruption of good. Evil depends upon good in order to exist. Without justice and love you cannot have injustice or hate.
As St. Augustine said, the matter is ordinate and inordinate love. Simply put, evil (more accurately the sin which causes evil) is love valued and practiced in the wrong way. It is directed to objects and people in ways that it should not. In that sense, sin can increase and take over. 
Kierkegaard (a Danish philosopher) gave a more modern explanation of sin which was putting our identity in anything or anyone other than God. 
In both cases, you can see how inordinate love or misplaced identity can then take over and ruin the whole person. If my love for person A is out of wack, there is a greater chance that it will be out of wack for others. If my identity is misplaced it will slowly (but surely) change who I am at my core. Imagine taking a false identity. In order to do that, you have to change a bit of who you are, maybe your name. Then, you change where you are from, your past, your likes, dislikes. If you immerse yourself in that identity it will take you over, you will become other than what you are. 
In regards to the idea of sinners and can unbelievers do good. I think there are two senses in which that is used: moral rightness, and spiritual regeneration. 
Moral rightness is within anyone who is guided by principles. Whether Christian or non, people can do what is moral. Sometimes non-Christians can put us Christians to shame in conformity to moral principles. In this sense, sinners (who aren't perfect) can still do right deeds. 
However, there is a deeper meaning to "goodness" and "righteousness". There is a sense of spiritual regeneration. We see this especially in the New Testament of the Bible. Jesus tells the spiritual leader (and arguably good man) Nicodemus that he must be "born again". The problem wasn't that Nicodemus didn't do good things (I'm sure that he did). Rather, his spirit was dead and needed to be revived, the part of him that can connect intimately to God needed to be brought to life. He needed such radical transformation that it is like birth all over again. 
Along this vein, you will see the Apostles (specifically Paul) explain that in the sense of spiritual life and goodness our efforts are bad. He literally says that his own pedigree and accomplishments is "sh-t." He will say that everyone's righteousness is like a used menstrual rag in God's sight. 
So, evil is the wrong ordering of our love and identity away from God. Goodness (in the moral sense) can be practiced and achieved by all. Goodness (in the sense of spiritual regeneration) is only given to us by God through Christ.
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Re: Evil

Post by latch on Fri Jan 08, 2016 9:25 pm

Blitz wrote:Then you agree with me that all men are evil outside of Christians?

Do you believe Christians are not evil? If so, why?

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Re: Evil

Post by Pound Cake on Tue Jan 12, 2016 11:37 pm

Well said, Mr. S, there's a lot there. I love you sited Agustine, incidentally.

And that's my argument, Jehoshaphat and Good Dr. Evil is corrupted good. It did not exist until Satan came along and corrupted good. It is therefore a quantity unto itself just like goodness.
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Re: Evil

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