Birth Control.

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Birth Control.

Post by Audrey on Sun May 22, 2016 7:35 pm

First topic message reminder :

Hey guys. I apologize in advance if this topic is too mature or in the wrong place on the forum; when I messaged Belle about a topic kind of on the subject in the SS, she agreed with me that it was probably best here. 

I'm really curious as to what you guys think about birth control. One of the main reasons Christians say you shouldn't have sex before marriage is to prevent any unwanted pregnancies. But with birth control (whether it be condoms, which are readily available, or actual BC women take) being so common among women (and with male birth control being developed, it'll probably be available for men soon), is that really a relevant reason? Condoms alone are 96% effective according to a study I read recently, and depending on the BC, it's around 99%+. 

Also: What do you guys think about it within marriage? (I'm genuinely really interested in these responses:p) As in, using it to prevent having children even when you are married. Is that disobeying God's commandment to be fruitful and multiply (or other verses I can't recite off the top of my head)? Are you of the belief that God will bless you with as many children as he believes you should have, and birth control is just hindering that?

Personally, in case you're curious: I know for sure I won't want kids till at least age 30 or so, probably longer. And I do plan on hopefully getting hitched before then. I want time with just my spouse (a lot of time) before throwing a kid into the mix. Not to bring up the Duggars (as I tend to do), but I don't agree with what they say about having kids right away; Jill (I think it was her) had a baby within nine months of being married. I don't think you can really enjoy your time with your spouse when you've just been married if you're pregnant/raising a kid. If BC is what it takes to not have an unplanned pregnancy, I am 100% for that idea, even if there are a couple side effects:p
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Re: Birth Control.

Post by War Doctor on Tue May 24, 2016 8:42 am

Reminding Jehoshaphat that I want him to specifically provide your reasoning why a couple shouldn't be able to determine, outside a woman's natural cycles, when they want to have sex that is not for the purpose of procreation. We talked about this in private messages in the chat but for everyone else could you explain your reasoning?
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Re: Birth Control.

Post by Jehoshaphat on Tue May 24, 2016 9:00 am

The basic principle is that it violates natural law. Abstaining from sex during the bodies natural fertile period is different than
making the body infertile during naturally fertile periods. BC violates the natural order of things and removes one of the purposes of sex.
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Re: Birth Control.

Post by Isaiah the Ox on Thu May 26, 2016 3:00 pm

Ok... So, I would say sex is a culmination of a marriage, of two people become one. However, if you say sex must equal procreation, and all else is selfish, then that must mean the main point of marriage is children. Right? And if so, then why don't couples move in together for a few years, get to know each other and how to live with each other, and then get married and have children? Wouldn't that make sense? I thought you guys say marriage is a sacrament, a way of salvation/grace. So, how all does that work if marriage just kinda means children? o_0

I'm guessing there's also differing opinions in Catholicism... and wonder what Pound thinks.  Surprised

(Yes, I may be exaggerating a hair, but I'd still like an answer)
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Re: Birth Control.

Post by Jehoshaphat on Thu May 26, 2016 9:42 pm

A short and sweet definition of marriage in the Catholic sense

The matrimonial covenant, by which a man and a woman establish between themselves a partnership of the whole of life, is by its nature ordered toward the good of the spouses and the procreation and education of offspring; this covenant between baptized persons has been raised by Christ the Lord to the dignity of a sacrament.

I would say that sex isn't the culmination of marriage. Sex is a part of marriage for sure, but it is definitely not the focus or the purpose of marriage. To say sex is the purpose of marriage is to denigrate both marriage and sex.

I didn't say sex must equal procreation, I said that one cannot intentionally remove the possibility of procreation during a time when one would normally be fertile.

According to the definition, marriage is for the good of spouses and the procreation of children. If you remove either of these aspects you remove a fundamental aspect of marriage. You should get to know your spouse before you move in with them, that's the purpose of dating and engagement. Simply living together without marriage would create scandal in the family because people assume that they are sleeping together not simply living. Also, living together before marriage creates a great temptation to sin, and what if it doesn't work out? Then where would you be? Marriage is meant to be lifelong and exclusive. It is a sacrament because it is a sign of god on earth, that is what all sacraments ares. God ordained marriage to be for the holiness of the married and for the care and creation of children.
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Re: Birth Control.

Post by War Doctor on Thu May 26, 2016 9:51 pm

one cannot intentionally remove the possibility of procreation during a time when one would normally be fertile.
This is obviously our point of disagreement and to me is what separates the Orthodox position from the Roman Catholic position. We would say something like marriage is intended to have and raise children, how and when you go about doing that in the Sacrament of marriage is between you, God, and your priest. Whereas the Roman Catholics have to dogmatize everything and spell out in legal language exactly how it should work for everyone. It leaves no room for grace to those in different circumstances. The quote I pointed out is full of clauses and modifiers to the point that it's about following a law and not about living out a Christian life.
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Re: Birth Control.

Post by Jehoshaphat on Thu May 26, 2016 11:13 pm

I would say that marriage is intended to have and raise children, how and when you go about doing that is between you and your spouse, using the means given, not any means possible. The church doesn't say "have as many children as possible as fast as possible", it says that marriage is orientated towards mutual holiness and procreation and that you should use reason when deciding when to have children. The Church has given means to regulate when you have children, we have just decided that artificial birth control is immoral.

There comes a point WD that morality must be proclaimed clearly and concisely. The RCC tends to have a firmer tendency in saying when things are moral and when they are not. Also, the paragraph you pulled that from was full of clauses and modifiers because I was explaining many concepts at the same time. I was explaining what marriage is, what it's purpose is, what we teach about birth control, and a host of other things. There comes a point when living out a Christian life means following the law of God. One cannot live in opposition to God and still validly claim to live a Christian life. To do so would be contradictory. Mercy is not letting people do whatever they want based on their own conscience and discernment with a priest, mercy is preaching the truth of Christ and accurately proclaiming those truths. Compromising were we can and holding fast where we cannot. To quote Captain America: Civil War,
Compromise where you can. Where you can’t, don’t. Even if everyone is telling you that something wrong is something right. Even if the whole world is telling you to move, it is your duty to plant yourself like a tree, look them in the eye, and say ‘No, YOU move’.
That is basically what St Pope Paul VI did with Humanae Vitae. So, in conclusion, the church does leave room for grace, we just believe that the best way to achieve God's grace is to follow his plan and will for our lives in every way.
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Re: Birth Control.

Post by War Doctor on Thu May 26, 2016 11:28 pm

That Captain America quote is arguing against the exact legalism that you are standing for, it's arguing against doing something just because someone decided it was wrong for you. Pretty sure Cap is on my side in this. 

I am not arguing against God's law, nor am I saying people can do whatever they want. I am saying that your church decided artificial medicines in the context of sex and birth is wrong, but nowhere else, and declared it God's law. And now you've just said, correct me if you didn't mean this, that if I decide to use BC then I cannot validly claim to live a Christian life.
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Re: Birth Control.

Post by Jehoshaphat on Fri May 27, 2016 8:40 am

In the context of this discussion, every church prior to the 1930s agreed that birth control was wrong. Now many accept it. The Catholic Church remains in what she always taught. In this discussion the church still says this is what is right, we don't care what the world says. I used the quote to emphasize why the Church can't and shouldn't change it's teaching.

The role of conscience is very important when it comes to morality. But for a conscience to be valid, it must be well formed. It must take into account what the church teaches. A well formed conscience will never violate the teachings of the Church.

Well that may be drawn from what I said, I meant that one cannot claim to live a valid Catholic life and use BC at the same time.
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Re: Birth Control.

Post by War Doctor on Fri May 27, 2016 8:51 am

I used the quote to emphasize why the Church can't and shouldn't change it's teaching.
Well that's kinda rich coming from the RCC Tongue out 

There is no room for conscience on this point in your tradition. So it doesn't matter if the conscience is well formed or not. 

Very well, I don't think it's an issue that rises to that level. And let me be clear, I am against abortificides and excluding children from the marriage all together but beyond that I think there is room for grace and conscience.
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Re: Birth Control.

Post by kait on Fri May 27, 2016 9:44 pm

@Jehoshaphat wrote:In the context of this discussion, every church prior to the 1930s agreed that birth control was wrong. Now many accept it. 

Considering the only form of birth control available at that time were condoms and diaphragms and actually was essentially illegal thanks to the Comstock act of 1873, I'd say this isn't necessarily a compelling argument in favor the the Catholic church's "consistent" stance on the subject. If anything, I'd say it's stuck in, well, the 19th century. Considering how much the landscape of birth control has changed since the 1930s, I don't think it's unreasonable that something once considered taboo is now no longer.
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Re: Birth Control.

Post by Jehoshaphat on Sat May 28, 2016 12:40 pm

That's plainly untrue, forms of artificial birth control such as contraceptives have been widespread for many centuries. Throughout all of those centuries the Church has condemned artificial birth control.
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Re: Birth Control.

Post by Luther on Sat May 28, 2016 9:08 pm

So the very definition of a Christian means allowing Christ to have control of your life. Does life somehow not include children? Shouldn't we allow God to decide how many children we have? It's the simple logical conclusion of Christianity.
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Re: Birth Control.

Post by War Doctor on Sat May 28, 2016 9:12 pm

So does that mean NFP is out too and that a couple should have sex whenever and deal with the children that come from that? 

But also God has given us free will and so we have to make decisions about our life. God should guide our lives and it should all be focused on Him but where does the Bible say that means having as many children as physically possible?
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Re: Birth Control.

Post by Luther on Sat May 28, 2016 9:25 pm

I'm saying its inconsistent to "control" anything. God is in control. End of story. 

We have free will, but that is so we can surrender that to God. You ignored my point. This has nothing to do with "having as many children as possible." It has to do with letting God decide. Do you think God would create a child who wasn't supposed to be created?
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Re: Birth Control.

Post by War Doctor on Sat May 28, 2016 9:35 pm

To me that's like saying we shouldn't wear a seatbelt because would God ever let someone get in an accident that wasn't suppose to be in an accident?
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Re: Birth Control.

Post by Luther on Sun May 29, 2016 3:20 pm

That's a very good point. I feel seat belts should be worn only because it is illegal otherwise. Not taking birth control is not illegal.
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Re: Birth Control.

Post by Woody on Sun May 29, 2016 3:50 pm

Wait, you really think following the law is the only reason to wear a seatbelt and that otherwise doing so would be a lack of faith? Isn't that being reckless and careless with the life God gave us?
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Re: Birth Control.

Post by Luther on Mon May 30, 2016 12:34 pm

I didn't say that. I just said the danger is to trust in a seatbelt rather than trust in God. Do we want to be dangerous in the life God gave us?
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Re: Birth Control.

Post by War Doctor on Mon May 30, 2016 12:39 pm

No we don't want to be dangerous or unwise or misuse the gifts God gives us, so in some circumstances it would be wise to wait to have children or not have as many as physically possible.
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Re: Birth Control.

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